Imram Kriya is about enlightenment, soul programs, and the meaning of life. How to reach your true self

— Hello again, Imram. I want to start our conversation and introduction with a question: why does a person tirelessly run away from his true everyday tasks — paying attention to his loved ones, paying attention to himself, respecting himself, helping other people?

— Hello!

I can say that all the trouble is not in the person himself, but in his way of thinking. And everything depends on the level of development of his mind, his reason, his consciousness. Most people live exactly as you say. They can’t even always concentrate on an important matter; even understanding the importance of this matter, they still can’t concentrate. All this happens because the mind was raised that way. The mind is interested — a minute later it’s not interested. It’s interested, say, for a few days in something, and when it sees that effort is required, it loses interest, it looks for some other loopholes. These are all games of the mind.

By and large, we are all egoists — even highly spiritual people are still egoists. Ordinary human life is built on the principle of ego: “me,” “mine,” “interesting,” “not interesting.” Most businesspeople (even those who live “in the world”) live by the principle of interest. He’s interested in investing money in this direction or getting something — he does it. Not interested — accordingly, he isn’t interested. This is all the mind’s work.

And such important points as service, helping one’s neighbor, at least helping oneself, are tied to the fact that something becomes interesting or not after a while. Because when a person is faced with the fact that this needs to be done regularly, effort must be applied, and he has to watch himself — and that’s a load — then, of course, his mind starts to “wander.” And this walk of the mind never ends. Therefore, discipline is required.

But answering the question of why this happens — yes, because the mind is like that. And why is the mind like that? Because there are programs connected with bodily programs. Everything depends on how a person was brought up. For example, if you immediately place a child in some military college, he will be formed. It is very important to take into account the principles of formation. If from the very beginning of life a person is placed in conditions in which he will develop, he will be like the conditions in which he develops. This forms certain principles, stereotypes, beliefs.

💡The power of conviction plays a very important role in every person’s life. Therefore, if convictions are weak or not quite correct, there will be wandering and vacillation. That is, energies will not be focused on a high goal. But people who cultivate certain principles within themselves have a goal, tasks. At first it is interesting to them, and then they gradually understand the depth of it all, they move in this direction and leave everything else without attention. In this way a certain rhythm is developed — you could even call it a spiritual rhythm. And on the way to this, his consciousness is formed; his neurons are rewired.

Why is spiritual discipline required for those who are not interested in anything? I sometimes ask a question — they say they don’t like this, don’t like that, this doesn’t appeal to them, and so on: “So we start doing something, but it doesn’t work out for us.” You ask why it doesn’t work. “Well, because somehow the interest is lost, and it somehow goes like that.” Of course, if we live from the mind, interest will be lost, because the mind wants quick results, and the mind wants a lot right away. You need to work with the mind.

The bodily programs we recorded from birth — “I like ice cream,” “I don’t like ice cream,” “I like sweets,” “I don’t like sweets” — two extremes; that’s why discipline is needed here. Children who are being born now come with certain programs. If parents, observing the child, understand him, understand how he feels, they become aware of the interests — the recorded programs with which he came — then this person will be successful in the future, because his parents gave him the opportunity to express himself. But if dissonance arises — for example, the child lives one inner life, and something else is imposed on him (or nothing happens at all, which is the worst) — then it will be difficult for him; he will have to relearn, and that requires great effort.

— Continuing about “interesting” and “not interesting.” You said the cause is what happened in a person’s childhood, and this affects his mind further. What other reasons form in a person the impulse that “this must be done, and I will do it”; the impulse that there is no division into “interesting” and “not interesting” — it’s simply life; and still the impulse that a person chooses for himself what is interesting — in essence, he can choose as interesting some truly essential things? What is the source of this interest, besides childhood?

— I touched on this topic a little in the previous question.

We are talking about the fact that each person is born already with certain programs of the soul. Parents do not always know about these programs. And, of course, a contradiction often arises when parents see one thing in their child, and in fact the child is completely different — or somewhat different. Nevertheless, there is family karma — there is individual karma, family karma, karma of the lineage, of the city, of the country, of the Earth. And all these factors influence the formation of personality.

There is also an antipode — forces that hinder the formation of personality to some extent. They are a kind of coaching aspect, stimulating a person to self-development. There are two of them in the Universe; they interact with each other. One force is creative, the other is transforming. I don’t want to say “destructive,” because, broadly speaking, there is nothing destructive in life. It depends on how we perceive it. One force stimulates us to develop; the other encourages us; to some extent, we resonate with it. Again, everything depends on what programs the soul has brought. And yes, there are forces that hinder our evolution. They work for good if we properly understand the processes: building our lives, engaging in some work.

💡For every action there is a counteraction. And if we say that something isn’t working out for us, then either we don’t know how, or we don’t want it enough. There are no other reasons to put at the head of the table.

All these are elements of karma. Karma hinders a person — on the one hand; on the other — karma leads a person through life. It depends on how you approach it. Some people are frightened by the word “karma.” We say that to feed is to do a good deed. We fed a person. “To feed” — that is also karma. That is, we passed on something positive to him, and he feels good because of it. He won’t die of hunger.

Therefore yes, there are indeed reasons why it is difficult for a person to develop, hard. Some say: “I really want to meditate, but I can’t, because there is a lot of work. I’m a businessperson, and I have no time for that.” Then I ask from the other side: “And how much effort do you spend in your business to hold all the processes together?” — “I have four areas, and it takes a very large amount of time to hold it all, control it, and so on.” — “In fact, you are engaged in a powerful method of concentrating your consciousness on all processes, because you have to be aware of all this, model, check, control, hold it. Right?” — “Yes.” — “So that is meditation. It’s just that in your consciousness the idea of meditation is the moment when we talk about divinity, about something spiritual, about something abstract.” In the end, meditation for some people is about nothing at all — just to relax the mind, sit without thoughts. And a person who has four directions in business is engaged in the same meditation; only he models the business and tries, applying the power of concentration, to maintain the position. And if he turns this work to his own good — and that’s how it is — he receives benefit from business, and he can redistribute these benefits and do something very kind and good further, promoting it into the world.

There is such a concept as righteous business; I often speak about this with those who engage in different directions. Righteous business is when you don’t “stuff your pockets,” but redirect this power, this energy of money, of possibilities, and create something. And then it is truly meditation. But of course, separate work is still needed, because for me meditation is actually communication with the Higher Self. That’s a separate article already. But meditation can be successfully applied everywhere and always. Moreover, difficulties in meditation arise only when a person does not understand principles, does not understand how to apply the power of concentration — and this is the foundation of our successful life. Thus, it is very hard for him to advance anything.

All this now — I’ve told a little bit from all sides about everything so it’s clear. This is the answer to the question of whether there are any reasons why it’s hard for a person to reach those high ideas. There are reasons. I’ll summarize once again: there is a karmic reason. For example, a child may simply come with other programs. In this life he wants more of material life, because in his past life, perhaps, he was wholly devoted to spiritual principles, and now he needs to determine himself and stand firmly in this material component. Moreover, after some time he must find in this material life the very spirituality with which he came, the aspects he brought. Then, from his past life, he should manifest them now — that is, to unite materiality with the spiritual.

💡For me there is no division between these two directions — spirituality and materiality. What’s more, I will say that for me materiality does not exist. For me there is only spirituality that inspires the material nature. That is, we are manifested as material beings; we have a body. This body has its programs; they are often imposed on us from childhood. We are born first in the mother’s womb bodiless — that is, something comes in as a soul; on the astral plane this all arises. Then it grows over with a bodily temple. And then the child is born already with the programs he has brought into this life on the astral plane, recorded in our energy centers. And they manifest themselves through our great instrument (the body is the temple).

These programs are often very, very far from us. They are inside us, but we do not awaken them. There is an expression “do not bury your talents.” This topic is very interesting, because any child is born with absolutely high qualities. But why doesn’t he manifest them in life? Because the tendency of development, the influence on the child — much comes from the parents. There are also other influences. These are influences related to the environment. There are even subtler, higher influences. They are connected with the Earth — that is, with our planet. There are even subtler, farther ones — but very powerful. These influences are connected with our astrology — that is, with the stars. Karma and the stars of astrology are very close, like synonyms. There is yet another impact on us. That is, we have approximately 12–24 serious such elements that prevent the child from reaching what you are asking about. But at the same time all these elements stimulate us very well to develop.

Simply put, if a person has determined his spiritual path and has goals and tasks, he knows where he is going, then the space of the Universe begins to help him. Of course, for every action there is a counteraction. But it is not as hard for him, because the Universe pushes him toward it; resonance has arisen. But if a person has high goals and tasks, and he for some reason took the bait of bodily programs and engages in other matters, imposed by the external environment, then contradictions will begin — his life will start to “peck” him a bit.

Quite often I repeat to those kriya-yoga students who come and say they want to but don’t know when to start, or how hard it all is. I say: “Don’t wait for the Universe to force you; just begin step by step and you’ll get used to it. Because when It starts to force us — and that will definitely happen — it will not be so pleasant.” This really requires a certain position of understanding what is truly necessary in life.

To sum up the second question. There are forces that influence us: forces of society, forces of Earth’s karma, individual karma, karma of the family, karma of the lineage — a lot influences us — then astrology as karma, which includes the karma of lineage, family, society, etc. Why was a child born in precisely this country, in this place? We are also influenced by the energy or information of what is called the Universe, space, the Milky Way. And of course, we rise to such very high aspects where, passing through all these barriers step by step, rising to these high aspects, we encounter the fact that there is the main, essential spiritual task of every person.

And what is interesting: no person comes here with some extraneous task. Everyone comes only for one thing — to build a direct personal connection with the Higher Self through unconditional love for everything, for everyone, and first of all for oneself.

If a person knows nothing, can do nothing, but is in an unconditional state of love and acceptance of all — nothing else is needed. Everything else will be done for him by the Universe.

— I wanted to continue the topic of renouncing the material. I am asked this question a lot, that in many works of different people there is an association that if a person is on the path of spiritual development, he must renounce the material world. And this is transmitted in modern society. I am a person living in the total perception that everything material is only a product of the spiritual world and a component of the spiritual world. From your side, can you reveal the question of why people perceive spiritual development as a renunciation of the material? Even the term “spiritual development” has acquired an unclear meaning over the past 30 years.

— The fact is that very much is imposed on us — by society itself and by many other things. Again, the question of how egoistically we approach this or that aspect of our life. Why did such a division occur? Because here the mind plays a very big role.

You know, spirituality for many people is mind games. Most people — about 50–70% — play at spirituality, but this is a good beginning. It’s good if they play at spirituality and not at something else. So, when they play at spirituality, the mind says: “Listen, you’re great, you’re doing yoga, you’re reading spiritual literature, that’s enough, you need to live. Live life to the fullest, breathe deeply, take care of your health, and so on. That’s your spiritual practice. What else do you need? You have a family, money, you’re fairly well off.” Now we’re speaking in general about people who live normally. When they meet in companies — they feel good there. They can talk about spiritual topics, somehow support each other, listen to music, meditate to beautiful music (which is absolutely wrong) — and this is called spiritual practice. That’s how it is in the world today.

I think you don’t agree with this at all. Because that is not spiritual practice; it is the beginning, to approach spiritual practice; a kind of moment of acquaintance with what spiritual practice is. Spiritual practice in the outside world may look as follows: Mother Teresa tended the lepers around the clock. Day and night she saw people off to the next world and cared for them, where these people experienced savage pain, discomfort that their bodies were in such a state. And she had to pass on to each person the love that these people truly lacked. That is why they found themselves in such a situation. This is heavy karma. And there was even a moment when she burst into tears because she didn’t have time to give more love to a person who died in her arms. That is truly spirituality.

What can we call spirituality? These are principles of service. And of course, I always say that service should begin with oneself. We cannot love people if we do not love ourselves. We cannot love the world, life, if we don’t understand who we are in relation to it. And of course, it’s really important what we do, where we are going, whether we understand our life, our tasks and goals. The division between spiritual and material continues to this day because it’s absolutely unprofitable for the mind. When I say “mind,” I mean Personality. Personality is formed thanks to the mind; the mind is formed thanks to Personality.

To understand why this happens, let’s plunge a little into the science of yoga. What does it say about what the mind is? We know why our mind is formed. A child is born, his mother takes him in her arms; his tactile sense develops. He begins to understand life through the mother’s touch. With what thoughts does the mother take the child in her arms? Let’s say she hasn’t slept for two days in a row, his tummy hurts, she doesn’t know what to do with it. She loves him, but she’s nervous because she’s tired. She takes him and says: “Would you finally stop crying already” — I’m giving an extreme example. Indeed, it’s hard for a person; mothers get tired with children; especially if there are many of them. All this is the foundation for the life of a child who in the future will perceive all these touches. This is a sense organ; it forms the mind. The mind is formed thanks to what the child feels.

💡We have five sense organs — vision, hearing, smell, touch, and taste. In this case we were talking about touch, when the mother takes the child in her arms. She is transmitting information. When she holds him with love, the cradle of the Universe, as they say, is open to him — that is, he is enjoying. He doesn’t understand yet, but he is already enjoying. This is a form of bliss.

Next, what does the child see? Everything he sees forms his mind. And if he sees games — these aggressive forms with bright, acidic colors, where they kill each other, shoot, or something else — all that forms the personality. And of course, such a personality formed this way will find it very difficult to get on the spiritual path, because his mind has other tendencies.

Therefore, it is very important first to instill in ourselves and then in other children and loved ones the right attitude toward life. To do this, we need to understand where we came from and who we are now. These two questions give an answer to the third question — where we will go afterward. Three questions that during life must be taken under control and answered. The very process of spiritual development is the answer to these questions.

There is no spiritual without the material. There are processes that plunge us into duality. At the beginning you said there are people who ask the same questions — but what have they done to answer them? They ask you; and when they ask me, I ask back, for example: “What have you yourself done to answer? Come on, you answer this question.” And a person begins to reflect; in the process of reflection a certain correction occurs and he gradually sails into that state in which he understands that spirituality is everywhere — it is within him. It is his right attitude toward himself and toward life. And then duality disappears — at least at this level.

At the feet of a saint lies all the gold of the world, and he walks on it, yet he is free from that gold. That is, he has many offers; the world throws everything at him; at first perhaps it tests him. But when the antipode understands that it’s useless — that he is already established — then it stops tempting him, and the person possesses everything, yet he is free from it. There is nothing wrong with having a good shelter, a good home — family first of all — and so on. There is nothing wrong in that; moreover, it is right, or righteous, because our world is our society.

The difficulty is that people forget themselves in it; they get stuck. I, for example, noticed such a moment when my wife sewed a shirt for me according to my vision; it turned out interesting; and students come up to me and say: “What a beautiful shirt you have!” And I see in the eyes the joy that it is beautiful; he likes it; he wants one like it. I look at him and say, it’s just a shirt, I just wear it. And then I ask: “Do you want me to give it to you right now?” — “No, no, it’s yours.” — “There is nothing here that is ‘ours’; we can simply use it and move through life deeper into ourselves.”

Yes, we can have the opportunity to communicate — here we have a direct connection, you and I. To make it happen, you need a computer. A computer is not cheap for people who have a small salary now; it’s hard for them to buy a good computer. But thank God we have it. It’s there so we can communicate; it’s just a tool. We can’t say that we depend on it. We depend on our breath, on the Divine breath within us, on His presence, without which you can’t even open the laptop lid. That’s what we depend on. And that is a good dependence; it gives us the opportunity to know the world. Therefore, in my understanding the atom is 999.999999% emptiness; everything else is light. There is no particle in the atom. It isn’t a dense little ball; it’s a set of energies that we perceive as density. Where is matter in this? It isn’t there. I can even say that from the point of view of quantum physics you have never sat on that chair. Because the radiations that arise during the rapid rotation of electrons around the nucleus, for example, form density. This density — the difference of potentials — either attracts or repels. The whole world is built this way.

So how can we say that the material is separate from the spiritual? Summing up the question — many don’t know how, in fact — there is a golden mean. By the principle: be in the world, be not of this world; you want to have — renounce. The golden mean. If you have the opportunity to buy good food, you do it — but you don’t live for food. If you have the opportunity to have a good home, you live in it; create comfort — but just enough not to fall asleep in that comfort, not to forget yourself. A small share of asceticism should be present.

I know there are some very famous wealthy people who walk in ordinary clothes. Not because they are saving or afraid. No — they are very simple people, but they do a lot for the world. So only spirituality exists. Even when a person hates someone — that is also a form of spirituality. Here he hates someone; he manifests aggression — it is a form of energy; he simply tinted it in a negative color. It is a certain power that he improperly and unrighteously uses in his life. He twists energies that will later return to him like a boomerang of karma, forcing him to think. In the word “to think” (in Russian “задуматься”) there is the word “back” (“зад”) and “mind” (“ум”). “Za-dum” — that is, to send the mind back would be right. And then to live by the heart, by intuition.

— Is there any difference between happiness and sadness? Can we even make such a division?

— It both exists and doesn’t. I’ll explain why, how I see it. The point is that, in my understanding, many serious phenomena of the soul have been somewhat distorted. For example, there is the concept of love, and there is the concept of attachment, which is passed off as love. A person says he loves this person and cannot live without them, they must always be by my side. Where is the love in that? Yet he says he loves. But love that borders on attachment is more attachment: there is an element of love there, but it’s presented as attachment. Or attachment is presented as love.

💡It’s the same here with joy and sadness. What is sadness? It is the absence of joy. But when a person is sad, he still understands that he wants joy. That is, joy is present; it’s just that he is sad, he sees it from the other side, and he is savoring it. It’s like a person suffering from intense thirst standing by a well or a river and not allowing himself to drink, because he says: “I’m just going to hold off a little longer; I really want to drink, my body is practically dried out, but I won’t allow myself to do it yet, because I want to experience this state.”

There is another Vedic example. When Radha, the beloved of Krishna (these are real events that took place about five and a half thousand years ago), was often sad about the fact that she could not always see her beloved. She loved him very much, but at the same time she said that the very moment of awaiting the beloved is the most important. Not the moment when he comes and she enjoys his presence, but the moment when she is waiting. She is sad and waiting; that is, joy mixed with sadness. But by and large, this is an illusion. It is a very big illusion in which people get stuck.

Many people say they want to remain in this state, they feel they love only when they are in this kind of experience. And so they play these games, instead of simply stopping wasting time on all this and moving in the direction of attainment. Because union with the Higher Self, the state of the presence of the Higher Self or the higher superconsciousness, the Source—it will truly give such an experience that cannot be compared with anything. And in his time Yogananda even said that nothing worldly in this life can compare with the experience of divinity. There is nothing higher than what a person experiences in the state of samadhi.

Therefore, in my understanding, sadness and joy are one and the same; it all depends on how a person relates to it. But there is a concept called despondency. That one is not good. Because despondency excludes the possibility of evolution. Despondency is “I’ve folded my hands, and that’s it; I can do nothing more, and I don’t want to, as if I’m doing something, but in fact it’s nothing.” There is no development in that. Therefore, such people must be stirred up.

— How do you awaken such a person?

— You need to move in the direction of his interest. You could say it’s a depressive state. Again, for me the concept of depression is also very relative. We spoke about how despondency excludes the possibility of evolution. Why? Because the mind, which does not receive what it is attached to, what it is used to—it stops developing, it doesn’t want to.

How to bring a person out of this state? You can bring him out through that to which the mind is attached. Start with that. This is the moment when you want to tell a child: “Listen, let’s go this way,” and he says: “No, Dad, we need to go the other way.” He’s stubborn and wants to go to the right, while you need to go to the left. And you say: “All right, let’s go to the right,” and you walk with him down the road. While talking, you turn him around, and you go back. That’s the principle; it is one of the strategies. That is, first you need to feed a person with what he likes, and through this give him an understanding of what he needs.

💡There is a saying: “A sated person does not understand the hungry.” When a person is hungry, it’s very difficult to talk to him about spiritual practices. He won’t listen to you; he’s simply hungry. He needs to be fed. You can, of course, pull him out through what is called understanding—conversation, explanation, clarification. This is provided that he is listening to you.

Of course, there is also such an important point as the power of conviction. You yourself must possess a certain power, and for this you must have personal experience. For example, guys come to my seminar, and after it ends they walk out inspired and start “treating” everyone else, saying: “Kriya Yoga is cool, you don’t understand!” and so on. I ask everyone to stop doing that. There’s no need to switch on preacher syndrome, because, first, this is not a religion, and second, people need to have an understanding of whether they need it or not; they will decide for themselves. The fact that you’re enthusiastic, that you were inspired by it, is very good, but keep this energy inside yourself, transform yourself, gain at least a little bit of personal experience, and then you will be honest toward those to whom you are telling this. The person simply does not feel the energy behind it; there is only some kind of mental, informational moment, an interest. We must possess a certain personal experience, and this experience will be felt by others. Therefore it is possible. It is possible precisely in this way: through understanding, through conversation, through inspiration.

I can give another example. Suppose a person has had something very bad happen (God forbid, he lost a loved one), and he became offended at God, at the Universe, at life; he said he would do nothing, wants nothing, doesn’t want to live, and so on. There are such cases. What happens at that moment? Perhaps the Creator will send a helper to the person: maybe it will be an angel, maybe some situation. It could even be a bird, a dog, a cat. Anything. God has enormous resources. At this moment there arises what I call “the spirit-comforter,” when a certain energy is given to a person and, along with it, understanding. He clearly understands that he is mistaken, and then a program switches on in him.

I myself went through this at one time. My younger brother (nine years younger than me) was ill for many years. We tried to do something for him. He practiced himself and, in the end, passed away—and not exactly from the illness because of which he could have passed away all those years. And a certain form arose in me; I observed it, like “I’m offended at life, how could this be?” I was very sorry that he did not achieve in his life what he strove for. He was a very spiritual person, engaged in various practices, as much as his body allowed. I came to Sai Baba’s ashram in Puttaparthi with a certain form of offense in my personality; that is, I was observing it. When I came to Darshan, very close to him, he looked into my eyes and my offense simply disappeared. The offense disappeared, because an understanding arose in me of just how right and righteous everything is.

— Can a society based on competition, on cruelty, on fear come to an end?

— It is destined to become spiritual.

— That’s a fact, at least for me. The question is time. This takes a long time.

— Everyone has their own time. And you know, time does not exist. And today even science says that time can be managed. And when we meditate, we often have the feeling that you sat for five minutes, but you sat for 30–40 minutes. There’s the feeling that you sit very long in practice or doing something, and only two or three minutes have passed. Or a dream, for example. You see a whole event in a dream, and only two minutes have passed. You see—time is different.

Everything depends on the degree of human perception, on the level of consciousness, on how ready a person is to accept this knowledge. Time can be compressed, and it can be stretched. This is a control system, and by and large it does not exist, because even if we compare the astral time period, it differs greatly from the physical. And even here, on the physical plane, we used to know that we had 24 hours in a day. Now, barely opening our eyes, we see that it is already evening, and today quantum psychologists tell us that we don’t have 24 hours in a day but 16, sometimes even 12—some say. That is, it turns out that time is narrowing in a spiral. On the one hand, the Universe is expanding; the time factor is narrowing.

How do you turn time into a point? Gather the space of our consciousness and compress it as much as possible. This process is manageable: you can expand, you can compress. And indeed, I agree with you, a certain amount of time is required for the formation of the Personality, which in the end will come to the essence. Mahasatya, when he gave the science of time management, said that the road to higher consciousness lies through two paths—through hell and through heaven. Through hell it is faster, and through heaven it is more beautiful. Therefore, if society chooses the path of violence, then this violence will inevitably reach them themselves. That is how karma works.

And if we say that the very process of choosing a path is also not ours—we cannot, to some extent, condemn a person, because he came with these programs. If there are people who live incorrectly in society and commit actions that hinder life, they come with these programs. To some extent, these are tools in the hands of the Universe, because, carrying out these programs, they have to punish those who must be punished. But in any case this person will be responsible. Why? Because he could have not done it. He always has the choice not to do it. And he does it because he does not control himself, does not understand his own nature, lives in an unconscious state. And here it is very important to learn to be in this self-aware technique of self-development, the practice of Sadhana.

— A few thoughts on the topic of time: when you live in the state of perception that there is “time” and there is “no time,” and you perceive this completely consciously—like the fact that a person has two eyes—then of course, in such a situation it doesn’t matter at all whether there is cruelty or fear at the moment, or it is not present now.

I had one such case. I was already in the state of absolute awareness that there is “time” and “no time” simultaneously. I was at Lake Baikal; a girl arrived and came into our house. I greeted her. And I had an absolutely clear insight that we were moving together with her to before the incarnation of humanity and after. It was so obvious that it laid down another layer of perception, I would say, such a material awareness of perception. The fact is that there are different layers of vision, and there is such a very distinct living-through of it. I saw her a little in this life. But such perception, such consciousness is so much above any time we spent together here that current events have only relative significance.

The question is that we still live now in a world where there is a lot of cruelty and fear. A person, of course, cannot reconcile himself to this while realizing that he lives in the material world. And here I want to move to the question: what in the modern perception of people is a direct threat and harm to a person’s spiritual development?

— It is human ignorance, the absence of knowledge. We have a lot of substitution now. The cunning of the infernal world, the otherworldly world, the demonic cunning—of those who are not interested in our development but are interested in having us work for them. I am now talking about parasites of consciousness. They have replaced many of our correct, righteous terms (I’m not even talking about directions and systems) with something else. And now all this is gradually surfacing; people are beginning to understand and are awakening.

Moreover, I can say that they have no chance: the Universe itself is interested in people awakening. Yes, it can be quite unpleasant when the resonance frequency jumps to 80–120 Hz, even for a short time. You know that the vibration frequency of 7.8 Hz is the Earth. And just imagine—our entire biology is built on this principle. We live on Earth, and we vibrate at this frequency. Our protein body vibrates at this frequency. And then suddenly—50, 60. What kind of load must that be on the consciousness, on the psyche, on the body? It can withstand it, but it is unpleasant.

Here is a simple example of how information is hidden and people are driven into this fear through ignorance. They say that today or tomorrow there will be one of the brightest, most powerful, negative solar flares on the sun that can lead to the death of people, especially if they are heart patients, and so on. Why present information like that? What is it for? Is that good? It is not good; it is evil, because people are being programmed. But no one says that a solar flare occurs for our powerful transformation. No one says that this flare carries tremendous benefit to people who, being irradiated by this energy and transforming consciousness, can rise to a higher level. It’s clear that there are sick people; unfortunately, they have such karma. They brought themselves to this, instead of engaging at the time when they could have with cleansing their protein body, studying some literature.

💡Therefore, I believe that the main problem is not in those who do this, but in those who and how perceive it. Ignorance is the worst sin, it seems to me. And what is ignorance? When our inquisitiveness has been extinguished, even simple curiosity that becomes inquisitiveness and then a striving for knowledge. It depends on parents, on society, on grandfathers and grandmothers—there are many nuances that interfere. Yes, the infernal world is working, and many people are now going through a reevaluation of values. But I know one thing for sure: there is no way back for us. Even those who do not keep up in this incarnation, in this life, they come in the next, fall into the same conditions, quickly continue developing, and from the moment at which they stopped, they move further. That’s for sure.

— Clarification: education and conveying information to children is a very interesting question for me personally. Probably not because I have four children. I always say that with each child you realize that you know even less about how to raise children.

You were just talking about some cartoons, getting into different aspects of life, events. That is, on the one hand, of course, I am in a completely different living, upbringing, than I was in my youth. My parents didn’t convey any information, any knowledge, any discussions. On the other hand, I still see how many events line up so that a child can watch such a cartoon, or when a child is in a living society.

As a child I would come home and say: “Mom, I’m disappearing.” Of course, it’s very hard for me to fully remember this. These were flashes when I seemed to fall through somewhere. Here, milliseconds passed—relatively speaking, milliseconds—but in awareness I was somewhere much longer. And the only thing my parents told me was not to talk about this when I would be getting my driver’s license.

About eight years ago, a series of events happened in my life, and I began to perceive intensely, to see. I began to have (there are many varieties of perception) exactly the same perception as I remember. That state switched on, and for me it was such a shock-recollection. It was a suppressed state, but I was able to switch part of it back on. And when you look at a child and see that he is in a state of deep perception and vision with nonstandard sense organs, then not to deny, but to help him with knowledge—in order to avoid future ignorance, which we just talked about—is a strong task of the parent.

And what should a person do who now truly has everything going badly, a bad series of events, and in reality it will be even worse?

— How everyone is afraid of Sade Sati. In astrology there is such a concept.

— Yes, I am familiar with the concept. In Sade Sati, after all, everyone is told that your period has passed, or now there is some short-term period.

But when you still understand that a person is doing badly and it will be worse? I remember I had one close person, a teacher for me at the time. His wife began to engage in Vedic astrology a lot, and he said: “When I plunged into the knowledge of Vedic astrology, I realized one thing: there can always be even worse. Worse to such an extent that it’s hard to imagine.” Astrology gives understanding very well. But still—if a person is doing badly and it will be worse in life?

— Here, the absence of the philosophy of a person’s consciousness, of course, causes fear. When do we get frightened? We are frightened when we do not know, and our mind assumes that it will be even worse. But in reality, knowledge allows us to understand how to make it so that it does not get worse.

I’ll explain what I mean. When we are afraid, when we are in a hopeless situation where we can’t do anything at all, we have the most important task—we can turn to the Higher Self or to the Source, to our Sadguru, if we have one, to God. Why do people turn to God? When things are truly bad. And then the sincerity of your prayer, your heartfelt appeal, switches mechanisms—at least 50% of the burden is lifted. This is what Mahavatar told us at one time. He comes precisely to help people. That is, when a person is on the edge, has nothing left, and knows that things are about to get really bad—then he turns to the Higher and asks.

💡It is at this very moment that it arises, because he needs to appeal now. That is why the heaviness arises—he must understand: his egoistic efforts, self-reliance are not bad, but there are things he cannot “carry,” so what he himself cannot do, the Creator does for him. And when, receiving the Spirit-Comforter in response to our request, we receive this powerful force of awareness—it becomes easier for us to go through life, passing through these difficulties. Simply put, comforting us, the Creator carries us in His arms Himself. Yes, we will have to work through some nuances of this karma, because that is the law, but He takes upon Himself the greater part of the burden and the load.

And I can assure you that if this process did not exist, we would not rise at all. Everything is that difficult. Imagine a person watching a film that contains scenes of murder. And he suffers, because this is already heavy karma. It doesn’t happen to the person himself, but the karma itself is already heavy. Because when a person sees such a scene, he is in fact not just a witness to it but, to some extent, a participant. He launches the mechanism of his feelings along with thought, and that is already karmically punishable. Thank God, all is well with us. And many people live as they live; things are relatively fine with them.

What needs to be done for a person to climb out of this state? First, he needs to understand who he is. Again, the philosophy of our life. I mean real philosophy now, not what is served to us by who knows whom and how, but the real knowledge we must at least basically receive in order to understand what we actually are. A person needs to be given the understanding that he is not the body. He needs to be given the understanding that he is not the mind—he is consciousness. A person is consciousness—moreover, high consciousness, the highest. He already delights in himself. For a person attached to bodily programs, of course, it’s difficult.

Another important point is pain. There is physical pain and there is soul pain. If we teach a child or a person to accept pain as power, we gain power. After all, pain thresholds are different for everyone. And there are even people who enjoy pain. This is considered a deviation, but nevertheless, this possibility exists.

So we come to the conclusion that we simply lack knowledge—knowledge of how to provide a person with the opportunity, help him enter this state, gain strength, gain these strengths through wisdom, and through wisdom and strength find peace. These are our three main postulates in the practice of Kriya Yoga, around which everything is based—divine strength, wisdom, and peace.

💡What is strength? Strength is that which is creative, that which we truly possess by nature, what we hold within ourselves. But we do not apply this strength because we have been raised incorrectly. We are told: “You’re tired—rest.” Suppose we are told: “You’ve expended a lot of effort; you need to rest; the muscles must recover.” But if a person has high conductivity, does he need to recover that often or that long? No. Why, then, are there people who can go several days without sleep? Why can they, in the flow, perform completely heavy physical phenomena, yet they are in the flow and they can do it?

Another example. The Great Patriotic War lasted four years. People in the trenches lived in utterly unbearable conditions. Few were sick. Unimaginable, unbearable conditions: cold, hunger. They all survived. And then, when they came home, many fell ill and died. Why is that? Because they were in the flow; they were in that strength. They had an idea, a high idea of victory.

If we have a high idea of striving, of victory over ourselves, then Sade Sati works for good. A person who understands this principle says: “Great, I will work everything off now and move on.” There are people who fear it; they say: “What will happen? Will I really have to go through it again?” and so on. It is, of course, unpleasant, not easy, but there are many ways to compensate for it. There is such a concept in astrology—upaya (appeasement of the planets). And the most important upaya for me (this is what I read; it’s my view of the question) is not some special actions and manipulations, but simple spiritual practice. Because when you engage in self-development, when you are striving, the “bullets” of misfortune fly past you, and they do not reach you. I went through this myself. That striving often saved me. I lived in such conditions in which it was not possible to meditate. I would even say impossible—but it is what it is. Therefore deprivation gives birth to an abundance of vital forces.

And there is another phrase—“Give a person everything he asks for, and you will ruin him.” Because desire does not end. The most important correction of our life—not simply to survive, but to rise and achieve high levels—is the correction connected with the fact that we are not the body and not the mind; we are consciousness. The entire practice must be built around this principle: “I am consciousness—I am not the body, I am not the mind.” And as for the methods of leading to this—that is the business of the specific direction, the system that people practice.

— I want to move to the question of how a person makes decisions. A person makes a large number of different decisions every hour, and he has the inner conviction that these decisions are true, correct, real, that he understands them, understands the cause-and-effect relationships. How should a person engage in self-development so that each decision made is not just true but the real next step in life—and that it happens automatically?

— There is a saying: “He who does nothing makes no mistakes.” People do nothing because they are afraid—afraid to make a mistake, to cause harm. Therefore, one must move by trial and error. When we don’t know how to cross to the other side of the river, assuming the river may contain some unpleasant stones, we still go; little by little we move, and we gain experience. We cannot get to the other side without crossing. We cannot avoid gaining experience if we move and act. We cannot say that we have reached some levels of knowledge if we just read a book. We must live by it, we must gain some part of the experience. People who read a lot are very well-read. But can he do something? Does he really know? Because that is not knowledge; it is just information.

Therefore, yes, personal experience is important. It truly matters that a person moves, is intent on gaining this experience, so that after this experience he gains the next experience. Step by step, we move toward the high goal to which the soul leads us. By the way, many people don’t know that the soul leads a person to that high goal. He simply meets, he does something, doesn’t do something, he goes by instinct. “Everyone ran, and I ran”—everyone ran that way, and God grant that this direction be the right one. Where is the right and the wrong? That is also a question for us personally. Therefore, you don’t need to be afraid of what is right or wrong. If you have understanding, if you can see the next 100 meters of your life and you understand that in the next 100 meters you are aware of something—move in that direction. I’m just reflecting now. And whether it’s right or not—those 100 meters will show you when you pass them. Correction always exists.

If a person is afraid, then he sits and does nothing. This is like the fable about Yersh, who sat and couldn’t climb out of his burrow. He was simply afraid of everything. But a moment will come when a person gets tired of being afraid, and he will act anyway. And, by and large, life itself is arranged in such a way that it not only forces us but stimulates us to move. “Forces” is not a very good word—it loves us in this way, cherishes us in this way, and makes us warriors of spirit, warriors of light—in the good sense of the question.

With regard to automatic living, here is my view: we mainly live automatically, unconsciously. This happens because the mind is fascinated by something it still wants, while the formed neural connections we have already allow us to easily perform one task or another. And this happens automatically. We can walk or drive a car, for example, having “fallen through” into some inner world, automatically controlling the car—which is not very good—and thinking about our own things, forming some principles, images, and so on. But we are not living “here and now”; we are not gaining personal experience, because our mind is either in the past or in the future—and this is a big problem.

But when we practice techniques of awareness and understanding, we say “tense your hand,” for example. I tense my hand, and right now I feel it; I am aware of what tension is. Then I relax my hand; I am aware of how I do it here and now. I am present in what I do. And thereby I form new neural connections that will in the future allow me to cope with this task easily. But on top of this awareness, thanks to which I cope easily, I superimpose even subtler processes—finer, deeper. In this way, from the physical, the etheric, we move into the astral, into a subtler perception of things. Of course, some processes we live through automatically, because it’s not worth spending time on them. For example, I can raise my hand and I know that I can do it. But imagine a person who, for some reason, no longer has this function. Suppose he has problems with the brain and he doesn’t feel his arm: he always raised it mechanically, and suddenly it doesn’t work. He tries to lift it with his other hand, but he doesn’t feel it. And here, very powerful work of awareness begins, when he has to learn again to feel, to direct all his attention, and then, with great effort, lift it and even tense it or do something.

That’s how it is in our lives. We constantly have to learn. We did something; the mind says: “That’s it, I’m great, I can do this, I don’t need it.” And it takes up something else—or doesn’t. There are people who stop at what they have achieved. They achieved—and then they don’t move on: “I possess this; it suits me.” And he boasts all his life about what he possesses. But in fact, he no longer possesses it, because it is already in the past. It does not work for his evolution.

💡When I am asked, “What should you do if you have attained enlightenment? What next?” I answer very simply: “Don’t stop, go on. Just keep going.” The Universe is boundless, immense; there is always something to do. Therefore, step by step, even through fear—but overcoming fear is also an important aspect of strength.

— Let’s move on to the question you’ve just voiced. A person asks what to do if he has attained enlightenment or experienced a certain state. In that state, a person thinks he is at some maximal evolutionary stage and will now control everyone.

There was a girl in one group—we were on a retreat—and she kept saying she wanted to realize the Light Body. Although the trip lay in the plane of studying entirely different things. At some point I said to her: “Listen, let me ask you a simple question. Imagine you realized the Light Body right now. As a person who has studied various materials, you understand what is happening to you. That is, at this moment you will no longer see your child and everything else. You do not exist in your current life. Ready? Shall we proceed?” To this she said that she was not ready. Then what realization of the Light Body can you talk about? What desire can you talk about?

People set goals within the framework of enlightenment without fully realizing the absurdity of this step. I wouldn’t call it spiritual development, but still it’s related—within the bundle of studies and involvement in the topic of spiritual development, spiritual life. It’s like pressing a button on a calculator: you pressed it—and that’s it, the action is over. What should a person do with these goals? The question is actually very important, because it’s one thing when a person does not perceive the spiritual world and perceives materiality (we discussed this question; it is incredibly large in the modern world, but it will develop). And on the other hand, what should people who feel they are in spiritual development do with these goals?

— Well, at the very beginning of the question you introduced a very good term: “within the framework of this enlightenment.” This expression itself says that we are limited.

— I introduced it on purpose.

— Yes, all frameworks are limitations. Enlightenment is a state where you are boundless, but at the same time you exist. It cannot be expressed. In general, the word “enlightenment” is very hackneyed. Most people do not understand what it is. Moreover, I have observed people who have approached a state of deep meditation closely, and they shy away. They ask for samadhi without knowing what it is. When you create conditions for them to enter this state, they shy away and say: “No, no, no, I need my child; I’m not ready for the Light Body now.” Because everything disappears. After all, the deep state of meditation is a state of the absence of mind. And when the mind disappears, the personality disappears. The personality does not want to disappear. That is why meditation is unsuccessful in people who have very strong hooks into the principles of “I,” “me.”

But if a person truly walks the path sincerely, he will have to face obstacles such as his own mind, his unconscious. The “unconscious” rises up. I will now answer the question of what to do next, but first you need to understand what to do with what is rising. In our practice we engage in the transformation of the boundless, unconscious world, which expresses itself in completely different ways, and it is very difficult to control it. It is as if a person has swallowed some substance and sees a firework—hallucinations in consciousness: he flies wherever. Today there are people who go through “trips.” I ask them a simple question: “Who were you?” — “I was God at that moment. I realized there, I achieved enlightenment and everything else.” And how about being God without that? “Then I have to go back into the trip.” That is, without this substance, he is nobody. That’s the first part.

The second important point. Can a person control the flows or processes that arise in him during a trip? I will now explain why I am saying all this. I’m simply combining many topics. He cannot control it. Why? Because there is no personal experience; it happens by itself. His mind, under the influence of some hallucinogenic substances, simply reacts to events. The lid of the subconscious, figuratively speaking, opens; a huge amount of energy and information is thrown out from there, and he begins to “fly” in it. It amazes him. Maybe it’s very beautiful—no matter. But he simply does not control it.

When a person practices meditation, he controls this process and transforms what rises from the subconscious (from the underworld, if you like). And there is a lot there, but it is all ourselves. It is all ours—what we have accumulated, what we have seen: all the fears, all the experiences, all the pleasant, unpleasant, ecstatic or other states and experiences. This is all what you are able to control, because it is your work on yourself; it is your conscious action. That is why self-awareness is important. And when all this, summing up all the energy, we consciously learn to perceive ourselves from the standpoint of “I am not this; I am something that exists and observes all of this,” then a person enters the state of unity with the Higher Self; he begins to understand his true nature. And this can be called by the hackneyed word—enlightenment.

💡For me, enlightenment is the state of accepting yourself—who you really are; not the one projected by the mind, not the one projected by the unconscious mind. There is consciousness, there is the subconscious, there is the superconscious. And in practice we strive to go to the superconscious, which gives us the highest degree of awareness if we do everything correctly. And thus we can control all processes; moreover, we can transform. This is the karmic component; it must be transformed. We cannot simply attain enlightenment and leave all this mess in our house, in ourselves. We must transform it. That is the law.

Therefore, whether people attain enlightenment or not, it is important to understand who I am. If I understand who I am, that is already enlightenment. I mean the Higher Self now. And the Higher Self is the beginning of our activity; it is not the end of life. Enlightenment is not the end of life. Or, let’s say, samadhi is not the end of life. Mahasamadhi is only the leaving of the physical plane. Samadhi is the beginning of life; it is a creative process. In samadhi one can create boundlessly; there are no frames there, because there is no one who exists from the point of view of duality. Frames are duality. Duality is frames. But in the word “frames” there is also “ram” as the name of God “Rama,” “ram” as the boundless fire, and “ki”—its energy.

Everything is connected; that is, it all depends on how we relate to it. If we have the knowledge of how to transform ourselves, how to relate correctly, then, on the one hand, frames exist; on the other hand, we can make from these frames something that will look like a very beautiful painting. It is precisely the frame that allows this painting to be set apart. We look at a painting—if there is simply a painting without a frame, it will look less beautiful than if you have made it so. Because it allows us to focus our attention. And what forces us to focus our attention are the frames of the external physical world, where, by the power of thought, we can ignite a fire, but we take matches. And even striking the matches doesn’t always work; sometimes the lighter doesn’t always work. But by respecting the laws of the physical world, we spiritualize material nature; you bring high ideas into this world, and then our Universe also develops.

Have you noticed how people eat?

— That’s true. I didn’t notice—it’s true of me. All my life I ate very quickly, except for the long most recent period. I ate very quickly.

— Because at that moment people are not present in what they are doing. Yes, and there is a very good practice of Zen (Chan) masters. They deliberately—purposefully—walk, take clothing, put it down, fold it, observe—they are in this process. Yes, in the modern world this is impossible. How so? You have to change quickly, run out; people are waiting for you there, and so on. All this fuss, the matrix influences like that. And you simply stop in this matrix. You just need to stop and do nothing, at least for a while. Then at least something will be possible to do for yourself and your loved ones. And when you exit time to the level of “I am beyond time”—then the speed can be very high. A person can solve a great many issues and tasks in a very short time and at the same time always remain beyond time—and manages to control all processes, their myriads; they are “slowed down” for you.

When I practiced martial arts, I saw that a hand, like a bullet flying out, moves slowly toward me—I still have time to think and I know what I will do. This did not happen as often as one would like, but it happens at critical moments. And as a bullet flies, a person, for example, has time to think through everything and then, at some point, removes his head. Our brain is unique in this sense; we just need to learn to direct all the energy of our brain to its own development, awakening its qualities for itself. That is, not for us (I’ve just separated), for the brain and for the instrument of our bodily temple.

— There is always “I am beyond time.” How easily and how often in life do you find yourself in an interaction or discussion that lies beyond your perception? Some events or topics?

— People sometimes ask me this question. Let’s simplify it a bit for those who will read this: am I in a state of altered consciousness or in ordinary consciousness? That will be simpler, because the state of altered consciousness—i.e., meditation in life, or nirvikalpa samadhi—it is precisely what allows you to communicate with the unmanifest, with that which is beyond manifestation, which you are then able to transmit into the external manifest world that limits these possibilities.

Everyone is in this state. Remember childhood, when a child stares at a single point, and then he is told that you can’t stare at a single point.

— Yes, it’s visible. If you are in the state of perception, you see that a person is looking at the spiritual world. I know this for sure when children look.

— And now imagine a master who, constantly being in the spiritual world, looks out into this limiting world and says: “Well then, come to me!” And people are afraid of this. It’s very difficult to explain all this; it’s incomprehensible to the mind, but masters are always in samadhi. Let it be a small experience; they allow themselves to do whatever they like, but they never lose their nature, they never miss this moment. And in reality, being in interaction with themselves, with the true nature, they speak to people from the subtle plane; they interact from the subtle plane. But they speak in simple, understandable words. It is precisely because they are masters that it becomes clear. And there is not even a thought that it could be otherwise, because every person has feeling and the sense of knowing. “I feel; I probably don’t fully understand, but I feel that this is so.” And the sense of knowing is the seventh sense; intuition is the sixth. This sense allows also to know why the teacher, the master, or the saint speaks this way.

Again, this transmission comes from him. We have no such experience before; suddenly we met a person, and he had the sensation that this is from that world—like you had on Olkhon. There you had the sensation that it was precisely that experience, and it could not have been anything else.

— Moreover, I was already in the state of fairly conscious tracking of everything that was happening.

— That is the sense of knowing.

— You have told a very good aspect. I also asked how much you yourself are in this now, by virtue of many years of different perceptions, when new events occur for you in terms of your own knowledge. I mean all kinds of knowledge.

— First of all, I am neutral about this at all times. In any case, when I observe that I have to enter into a process—for example, the intensity of experiencing events—I am always the one who observes it. That is, for me these events do not exist in terms of “I got lost in them.” Even in the most important fragments of life for the physical body, for close people, for beings, for myself as a physical body, I mean—even at that moment I am always distanced. This is simply my nature.

From the moment I once came to know who I am, it’s not that I cannot—it’s even laughable. It’s even strange that a person who is aware of himself would want to live in the body of a ferret and get lost in it. That is impossible. When people ask the question*: “And how is that in general?”—I ask the person’s name. He says, let’s say, Peter. I say: “Peter, let’s play a game. Right now you will forget that you are Peter once and for all.” — “How so? That’s impossible.” — “Moreover, that’s not all. You will suddenly begin to be aware of yourself in the form of a cockroach.” — “Will I simply disappear and be a cockroach?” — “Yes, imagine that.” — “That is impossible to imagine.” — “Of course it is impossible. Because you were already a cockroach; now you are Peter. And you will never want to go back.”*

And now we are being forced to go back—if not to a cockroach, then to a baboon, for example. Having forgotten his nature, a person can turn into anything whatsoever. He can visualize anything whatsoever: whatever is imposed on him, that is what he will see, and that is how he will feel himself.

— The fact is that for people moving into a trip (what they call a trip), a lot can be shown visually, in knowledge, in touches, in the spiritual plane. The question is what kind of movement this is—to true self-awareness or, in reality, complete degradation? Because for people the spiritual world is “magic tricks.”

— In fact, there is a very important philosophical point here that is key. Imagine this: we are beings that came from above. That is, we were born thanks to a flash of the consciousness of light, which is to say we are divine, embodiments of gods on Earth. We are creators. Whether someone believes this or not, it is so. The Scriptures even say this. And now the creator has forgotten himself. And he says: “I want to remember that I am a creator. And for this I take a plant that is much lower than I am on the scale of evolution.” Ayahuasca—what is it? It is a plant; it is the world of plants. It is at the bottom of the evolutionary ladder. The scale of evolution—where is the human, where is the demigod, and where is this plant. “...And through this plant I will remember that I am a god.” Well, that’s laughable, isn’t it. This is how the games of the mind wind us up.

How can one, through something low-evolutionary, come to a high-evolutionary aspect once and for all? In the moment of experiencing hallucinogenic substances, when they suppress his Self, his cerebral cortex, his perception—unconscious, subconscious aspects surface, which he does not control; at that moment he realizes something.

Of course, I can say that in any matter there is the positive and the negative. Let’s find the positive in this, to calm those who will read, and those lovers who go through the same trips ten times that give nothing. You ask them a question, and they say they understood a lot. I ask: “You understood—but have you mastered it?” I am against this. In my school, in my direction, no one does this, because it contradicts spiritual development. But in order to save a person from death, for example: a person has a very severe pain shock; they inject morphine—of course.

— That is not even up for discussion. It’s a different process.

— And if we are talking about a person who has a strong attachment, a great fear, some very serious problems, who knows nothing else, and if through this he faces that problem head-on and somehow becomes aware of it? Then, coming out of it, he will lose the ability to be in that state, because the intoxication has ended. But he retains something as memory; he at least has the opportunity to move somewhere even deeper. Ultimately, he will need to learn to enter the state of unity with his Higher Self without any substances.

In the East, particularly in India, students are sometimes—in some systems (not everywhere; these are separate systems)—given something to try so that they can experience certain states. After which their paradigm shifts, attachment recedes. He understands that he is in consciousness. And then the master tells him: “Now you yourself must, by engaging in spiritual practice, by meditating, come to the state in which you are able to do anything consciously.” There is no awareness in this if you take it; it all works for you; you control nothing—you are simply a couch. And where is the development in that? There is none.

And it is a very important point that when we, having belittled our evolution, agree that some substance can raise us very high evolutionarily, we renounce our own awareness of our high nature. This is a rollback in the evolutionary aspect. Thus, we achieve nothing.

I have seen people who have been doing this for years—they achieve nothing. Moreover, they degrade in it, because they let time pass. Time passes; they do not develop; they do not study anything further; they simply sit on the grass.

— They also develop physical addictions. And one can also get specific non-reversible damage.

— Of course, that is how it happens. There they are, sitting on the grass. You can sit on the grass in two cases: when you are relaxing in a meadow under the sun and when you are “on” it. Such is the irony of fate. And these are also the demon’s tricks. A cult has been made of this—there is now a whole cult of ayahuasca. What are people striving for? We are all beings of light; we are the highest. Remove the mental blinders—and then the light of pure reason will manifest. But how can pure reason manifest if a person pushes himself forward in a state of intoxication? It is impossible.

Mushrooms belong here as well, by the way. There is their own egregore there, as with the plants. They elevate it as something very important that stands above you. No one stands above human beings except God.

— No one. And a person can know his “self” only by himself. No one else will know and show it for him. Thank you very much for a good meeting.

— I am grateful. I wish prosperity, joy, goodness. And may those people who go with you, who follow you, prosper in much—virtually in everything. Be happy.

— Nice to meet you. Thank you very much. See you.